The Australian is an absolute rag. Along with all in the Murdoch stable now a byword for ideologically bent and negative bile. As for Sarah Henderson - she is pearl-throated nonsense... pardon my ad hominem moment! How can it be that she once hosted the Ethnic Business Awards (an award ignoring the meaning of "Ethnic" (we all have ethnicity) but apparently rewarding /highlighting "Migrant" (shouldn't it be "Immigrant"?) and Indigenous excellence in business - given her apparent fearfulness of anything or anyone of Palestinian (including Christian one might observe), Arab, Muslim - "Middle Eastern" connection. She should hang her head in shame...
Great article but the problem with saying Jews, Palestinians is that it is incorrect. This is not about Jews and Palestinians. Jews are a religion and Palestinians are a people. Either it is Jews, Muslims and Christians or it is Palestinians and Israelis.
Most Jews do not even live in what is called Israel.
I'd go further - Not Israelis - rather Zionist Israelis - and their Zionist lobbies abroad and the Evangelical "Christian" Zionist supporters - including the loudly self-proclaimed Biden! Gideon Levy is an Israeli but certainly NOT a Zionist!
Yes, although unfortunately Levy is one of the rarities and Israelis who agree with him would barely make the hundreds. Unfortunately the horror that is Israel does reflect Israeli society, culture and State in the main. The exceptions to the rule are very few indeed.
Not looking to make trouble or challenge your valid points. Genuine curiosity for one with family in Israel and Palestinian territory. And who has cultivated deep friendships with those who consider themselves Druze community before any nationality, and who are sometimes split in their families between those who accept one citizenship over the non-citizen status of indigenous Palestinian non-Jews.
The history and linguistics books I've spent my youth and muddle years poring over from various perspectives are not clear except to note the pluralistic sentiments that under British or Turkish imperial rule refer to what came to be called Palestine\Falastina or Falastiniyya under Arabic Imperial rule and Quranic\Hadith holy scriptures as opposed to under the Roman Empire, with earlier Greek Empires using their own orthography out of their earlier Greek and Aramaic Scriptures which likely used orthography from Hebrew\Aramaic and the use of Israel or Canaanite archaeology transformed by deus ex machina (now out of service) into The Holy Land or Covenant Land(s) presumably using the Phalastina spelling. I'm not aware of a distinct Druze language and those I've befriended have all been poly-lingual in regional languages with perhaps their own Druzi communal slang.
Wikipedia may need some on-the-ground linguistic clarifiction or outreach efforts unless insular Druze\Droozi communal taboo prohibits answering such questions. Classical Arabic remains the presumably carbon-dating and other archeological methods of artifacting a tongue that pre-dates his\herstoric library written documentation along the lines of ancient Egyptian tongues of which the hieroglyphical translations published pique my skeptical reflexes on authentiction or merely my own under-education:
You've noted a major media rhetorical implant into properly denoting demographics in The Holy Land(s). Thanks very much for offering that bit of substantial media critique of our American brand of Anglocentricity. Any more info on Druze and whether Seleucids like the indigenous North African pluralistic if regionally tribal Tamazight had at one time or now in private insular community usage maintain their own linguistically distinct lingo?
Warmly, appreciatively yours
with wishes for a healthy and balanced New Year
by western time-keeping (can't even call it secular as Church had
Not sure if this was a reply to George or to me. It appeared under my post.
I think the issue is far simpler than it needs to be and beyond historical realities or claims.
It does not actually matter how old Palestine is, nor that many Jews believe in a mythical Israel created in Palestine.
The only things which matter are as follows and not in order:
1. brutal military colonial occupation where the native people of the land, those there before the colonists arrived, are treated with sadistic cruelty and bestial savagery is a WRONG.
2. Imprisoning, torturing, raping, murdering people because they resist your occupation is WRONG.
3. Denying people justice, freedom and human and civil rights is WRONG.
4. Using massive military power to imprison and punish the native people of the land you have colonised is WRONG.
5. Seeking to commit genocide, the destruction of the people, culture, society, history, infrastructure is WRONG.
All the rest is irrelevant padding. It doesn't matter what Jews or Israelis and their supporters think about Palestine, religion or history. What matters is what is being done and has been done for 76 years in the name of those things which is pure evil.
Yes you only have to look at the atrocities continuing to be committed by Israel in Gaza to know that this WRONG on a grand scale, all this killing can never be justified
Many people, particularly Americans, simply do not know that Israel was forced into Palestine in genocidal slaughter and ethnic cleansing and that Israel occupies all of Palestine and inflicts a truly sadistic and bestial military colonial rule on the native people whose land they have stolen.
And there are too many who believe the bullshit about religious fantasy Israel and are happy to see millions die in the name of religious bullshit.
The Israeli justification for taking other peoples land has always been biblical - that ''God'' allegedly promised them Palestine - however the existence of God has never been proven it's always used as a fictional character in order to realize another hidden agenda.
I'm not opposed to people following peaceful religions, however to me it's clear how they've being misused by individuals for selfish gains.
Corporations are also fictional characters clearly willing and able to abuse their powers and influence over matters of government.
The trouble with God playing realtor is that while no-one can prove any God exists, neither can they prove any God does not exist. However, logic, reason and common sense would say that what any God might have said thousands of years ago, even playing realtor, is irrelevant in our modern world.
Religions have long been used for powerful agendas, personal, national, cultural, but to see it happening in the modern age is a disgrace.
"Religions have long been used for powerful agendas, personal, national, cultural, but to see it happening in the modern age is a disgrace."
I don't see any valid argument to refute your observation. However, it seems you've left out the most important grouping to affect cartography and notation of maps, trade agreements and to settle border disputes over changing regimes and national languages:
Also under secular standards allow me to call awareness to the grouping of "IMPERIAL" map\treaty-making that could extend as long as a monarchical line provided succeeding or surviving foot-noting and family tree documents remain in mercantile & property archival files (sheepskin, papyrus, bark slates, cave walls and rock faces or slate public records etc) that span nobility claims & deeds preserved across dynastic rule straddling changing tribal\national borders from original curricula use or preserved and authenticated reference materials such as those in the libraries preserved at Carthage or Alexandria\Alexandriyya.
Scriptures of various faiths practiced and consigned to his\herstory or dying languages and alphabets figure as further monkey wrenches to be reckoned with in any universal concordance endeavor straddling significant periods of non-published time and academic era. I've also maintained a non-wholly invalidating skepticism of the rectitude of scholarly translations from dead (and often buried, cremated or variously rendered into written phonetically) transcribed languages and orthography.
I have a great interest in and respect for history. I also understand global political and power dynamics, as much as one can.
But, times have changed because technology has changed. it is easier to lie in our techo age but also easier to refute the lies.
In addition, younger generations are taught very little, if any, history and most know nothing, or, even if they do, care even less about border disputes, trade agreements, or the holocaust experience of European Jews nearly a century ago. They are interested in the now and what is happening to their world and their future.
But, even though they do not know history they are exposed to immediate images of wrongs done around the world. This is powerful. A picture is worth a thousand words and every image which spins around the globe of a dead or maimed Palestinian child, or sicko Israeli soldiers with the toys of children they have killed tied to their tanks, or wearing the lingerie of women they have killed, will have a far greater impact on their hearts and minds than any history.
They care about how people are treated. For good and for ill they come from a place of feeling. This is why more than half young Americans want Israel dismantled and why many young American Jews feel the same.
We have entered the 21st century and it is the young who will make the decisions which create the future, for good and for ill.
The young care about how people are treated, how animals are treated, how the planet is treated. Indeed, so do some from older generations. There is a different mindset developing which will put aside the old ways of doing and being.
When billions see the atrocities inflicted by Israel on the Palestinians and learn, as they have, that Israel occupies Palestine and continues to colonise it, they will react from that perspective, regardless of who did or said what a thousand or more years ago.
It is clear that the Israeli social, educational and political discourse fundamentally dehumanised Palestinians society so much so that citizen soldiers in the IDF find it justified to randomly and selectively to kill children and to reduce civilian infrastructure to rubble and to allow bodies of dead Palestinians to be eaten by dogs. It is easy for an Israeli sniper to shoot and kill women and children with impunity and then celebrate the kill. We know this because this genocide has been played out online for us all to witness. That IDf military are happy to expose the world to their cruelty and hate on line, further suggests an unquestioning collective righteousness, and belief in the supremacy of the Israli state. It appears that our institutions and government almost collectively accept this discourse or fear the power of Zionism that has been imbedded in our institutional and social domaines.
For your defence of Dr Abdel-Fattah - bravo!
The Australian is an absolute rag. Along with all in the Murdoch stable now a byword for ideologically bent and negative bile. As for Sarah Henderson - she is pearl-throated nonsense... pardon my ad hominem moment! How can it be that she once hosted the Ethnic Business Awards (an award ignoring the meaning of "Ethnic" (we all have ethnicity) but apparently rewarding /highlighting "Migrant" (shouldn't it be "Immigrant"?) and Indigenous excellence in business - given her apparent fearfulness of anything or anyone of Palestinian (including Christian one might observe), Arab, Muslim - "Middle Eastern" connection. She should hang her head in shame...
Great article but the problem with saying Jews, Palestinians is that it is incorrect. This is not about Jews and Palestinians. Jews are a religion and Palestinians are a people. Either it is Jews, Muslims and Christians or it is Palestinians and Israelis.
Most Jews do not even live in what is called Israel.
I'd go further - Not Israelis - rather Zionist Israelis - and their Zionist lobbies abroad and the Evangelical "Christian" Zionist supporters - including the loudly self-proclaimed Biden! Gideon Levy is an Israeli but certainly NOT a Zionist!
Yes, although unfortunately Levy is one of the rarities and Israelis who agree with him would barely make the hundreds. Unfortunately the horror that is Israel does reflect Israeli society, culture and State in the main. The exceptions to the rule are very few indeed.
Not looking to make trouble or challenge your valid points. Genuine curiosity for one with family in Israel and Palestinian territory. And who has cultivated deep friendships with those who consider themselves Druze community before any nationality, and who are sometimes split in their families between those who accept one citizenship over the non-citizen status of indigenous Palestinian non-Jews.
The history and linguistics books I've spent my youth and muddle years poring over from various perspectives are not clear except to note the pluralistic sentiments that under British or Turkish imperial rule refer to what came to be called Palestine\Falastina or Falastiniyya under Arabic Imperial rule and Quranic\Hadith holy scriptures as opposed to under the Roman Empire, with earlier Greek Empires using their own orthography out of their earlier Greek and Aramaic Scriptures which likely used orthography from Hebrew\Aramaic and the use of Israel or Canaanite archaeology transformed by deus ex machina (now out of service) into The Holy Land or Covenant Land(s) presumably using the Phalastina spelling. I'm not aware of a distinct Druze language and those I've befriended have all been poly-lingual in regional languages with perhaps their own Druzi communal slang.
Wikipedia may need some on-the-ground linguistic clarifiction or outreach efforts unless insular Druze\Droozi communal taboo prohibits answering such questions. Classical Arabic remains the presumably carbon-dating and other archeological methods of artifacting a tongue that pre-dates his\herstoric library written documentation along the lines of ancient Egyptian tongues of which the hieroglyphical translations published pique my skeptical reflexes on authentiction or merely my own under-education:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
You've noted a major media rhetorical implant into properly denoting demographics in The Holy Land(s). Thanks very much for offering that bit of substantial media critique of our American brand of Anglocentricity. Any more info on Druze and whether Seleucids like the indigenous North African pluralistic if regionally tribal Tamazight had at one time or now in private insular community usage maintain their own linguistically distinct lingo?
Warmly, appreciatively yours
with wishes for a healthy and balanced New Year
by western time-keeping (can't even call it secular as Church had
more than 2 hands in it....)
Tio Mitchito
Mitch Ritter\Paradigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers
Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of Atonement Seekers)
Media Discussion List\Looksee
Not sure if this was a reply to George or to me. It appeared under my post.
I think the issue is far simpler than it needs to be and beyond historical realities or claims.
It does not actually matter how old Palestine is, nor that many Jews believe in a mythical Israel created in Palestine.
The only things which matter are as follows and not in order:
1. brutal military colonial occupation where the native people of the land, those there before the colonists arrived, are treated with sadistic cruelty and bestial savagery is a WRONG.
2. Imprisoning, torturing, raping, murdering people because they resist your occupation is WRONG.
3. Denying people justice, freedom and human and civil rights is WRONG.
4. Using massive military power to imprison and punish the native people of the land you have colonised is WRONG.
5. Seeking to commit genocide, the destruction of the people, culture, society, history, infrastructure is WRONG.
All the rest is irrelevant padding. It doesn't matter what Jews or Israelis and their supporters think about Palestine, religion or history. What matters is what is being done and has been done for 76 years in the name of those things which is pure evil.
Totally agree. These are some of my thoughts while reading this thread.
Yes you only have to look at the atrocities continuing to be committed by Israel in Gaza to know that this WRONG on a grand scale, all this killing can never be justified
Remarkably there are many people who do seek to justify the slaughter. Israelis must because they created this mess,
many Jews must because they helped create this genocide;
nutter Zionist Christians must because they want Armageddon when everyone dies, except them, including all Jews;
and Muslim haters must because anyone who kills Muslims is a hero,
but why others who do not fit those categories support and promote the genocide is the question.
MIC profits
More political donations in US politics
One issue I find that isn't said often is this:
Why would we question the rage (revenge option/choice) of some Palestinians AFTER they have endured this horrible treatment for so long?
The creation of Zionist Israel since 1948 is/was a massive WRONG. This genocide is the perpetration of revenge by the original aggressor.
Many people, particularly Americans, simply do not know that Israel was forced into Palestine in genocidal slaughter and ethnic cleansing and that Israel occupies all of Palestine and inflicts a truly sadistic and bestial military colonial rule on the native people whose land they have stolen.
And there are too many who believe the bullshit about religious fantasy Israel and are happy to see millions die in the name of religious bullshit.
The misuse of fictional characters.
Don’t get your point.
The Israeli justification for taking other peoples land has always been biblical - that ''God'' allegedly promised them Palestine - however the existence of God has never been proven it's always used as a fictional character in order to realize another hidden agenda.
I'm not opposed to people following peaceful religions, however to me it's clear how they've being misused by individuals for selfish gains.
Corporations are also fictional characters clearly willing and able to abuse their powers and influence over matters of government.
The trouble with God playing realtor is that while no-one can prove any God exists, neither can they prove any God does not exist. However, logic, reason and common sense would say that what any God might have said thousands of years ago, even playing realtor, is irrelevant in our modern world.
Religions have long been used for powerful agendas, personal, national, cultural, but to see it happening in the modern age is a disgrace.
In essence I agree with you.
"Religions have long been used for powerful agendas, personal, national, cultural, but to see it happening in the modern age is a disgrace."
I don't see any valid argument to refute your observation. However, it seems you've left out the most important grouping to affect cartography and notation of maps, trade agreements and to settle border disputes over changing regimes and national languages:
Also under secular standards allow me to call awareness to the grouping of "IMPERIAL" map\treaty-making that could extend as long as a monarchical line provided succeeding or surviving foot-noting and family tree documents remain in mercantile & property archival files (sheepskin, papyrus, bark slates, cave walls and rock faces or slate public records etc) that span nobility claims & deeds preserved across dynastic rule straddling changing tribal\national borders from original curricula use or preserved and authenticated reference materials such as those in the libraries preserved at Carthage or Alexandria\Alexandriyya.
Scriptures of various faiths practiced and consigned to his\herstory or dying languages and alphabets figure as further monkey wrenches to be reckoned with in any universal concordance endeavor straddling significant periods of non-published time and academic era. I've also maintained a non-wholly invalidating skepticism of the rectitude of scholarly translations from dead (and often buried, cremated or variously rendered into written phonetically) transcribed languages and orthography.
Health and balance
across the threshold(s) of time and keeping
Tio Mitchito
Mitch Ritter\Paradigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers
Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of Atonement Seekers)
Media Discussion List\Looksee
I have a great interest in and respect for history. I also understand global political and power dynamics, as much as one can.
But, times have changed because technology has changed. it is easier to lie in our techo age but also easier to refute the lies.
In addition, younger generations are taught very little, if any, history and most know nothing, or, even if they do, care even less about border disputes, trade agreements, or the holocaust experience of European Jews nearly a century ago. They are interested in the now and what is happening to their world and their future.
But, even though they do not know history they are exposed to immediate images of wrongs done around the world. This is powerful. A picture is worth a thousand words and every image which spins around the globe of a dead or maimed Palestinian child, or sicko Israeli soldiers with the toys of children they have killed tied to their tanks, or wearing the lingerie of women they have killed, will have a far greater impact on their hearts and minds than any history.
They care about how people are treated. For good and for ill they come from a place of feeling. This is why more than half young Americans want Israel dismantled and why many young American Jews feel the same.
We have entered the 21st century and it is the young who will make the decisions which create the future, for good and for ill.
The young care about how people are treated, how animals are treated, how the planet is treated. Indeed, so do some from older generations. There is a different mindset developing which will put aside the old ways of doing and being.
When billions see the atrocities inflicted by Israel on the Palestinians and learn, as they have, that Israel occupies Palestine and continues to colonise it, they will react from that perspective, regardless of who did or said what a thousand or more years ago.
Something either exist or it doesn't - there's no in between.
Well there is an in between in terms of a process. A foetus exists as a foetus with the potential to become a viable human being.
A cake exists as a potential within the ingredients. It is in between being divided ingredients and a united whole.
A disease exists as a process which may be healed or which may kill you. I think there is a lot of in between.
Dear George, Many thanks for all the information. I think that Zionism is all over the world.
It sure is Ethel. Zionism is a cancer.
It is clear that the Israeli social, educational and political discourse fundamentally dehumanised Palestinians society so much so that citizen soldiers in the IDF find it justified to randomly and selectively to kill children and to reduce civilian infrastructure to rubble and to allow bodies of dead Palestinians to be eaten by dogs. It is easy for an Israeli sniper to shoot and kill women and children with impunity and then celebrate the kill. We know this because this genocide has been played out online for us all to witness. That IDf military are happy to expose the world to their cruelty and hate on line, further suggests an unquestioning collective righteousness, and belief in the supremacy of the Israli state. It appears that our institutions and government almost collectively accept this discourse or fear the power of Zionism that has been imbedded in our institutional and social domaines.
We must end and the deliberate abuse of fictional characters to influence matters of government.